#Theomore Manderly

[beyondmistland]

In your opinion, would Princess Viserra's fate have changed if she had been promised to Lord Manderly's heir, and not to him?

That is to say, if marriage to the Manderlys were necessary to formalize a pact with the North, perhaps a handsome husband of the same age who would make her Lady of White Harbor would be more interesting to the young princess.

I won't hold back. NOTHING about Viserra's storyline makes any sense short of all the characters having a stroke.

Perceptive and compassionate Alysanne, who previously demonstrated considerable matchmaking skills, suddenly becomes very bad at it. (Don't get me started on Elio Garcia's attempt to defend Alysanne's OOC behavior as her being jealous of her own daughter's beauty.)

Jaehaerys suddenly becomes an absentee father from the 1950s rather than, you know, a medieval king for whom his daughter's marriage is of the utmost political importance.

Septon Barth? Grand Maester Elysar? Both MIA.

Theomore Manderly? If he was truly canny, he would have seen the offer for what it was and declined it.

Its true, the best way to tie the North closer to the south (and more specifically the Iron Throne) short of House Stark is House Manderly. However, marrying Viserra, a princess (and the prettiest one at that) to Theomore entirely defeats that purpose. One, a fat man old enough to be your grandfather is hardly appealing on a personal level, especially to a teen princess who knows just how attractive she is. Two, any children Viserra had would come behind four wives' worth of stepchildren, practically guaranteeing that the future Lords of White Harbor won't share any direct blood ties to House Targaryen, which brings me to my third point. Marrying Viserra to Theomore more or less dooms Viserra's line to obscurity and she herself to a life of dependency on the charity of her stepson.

What, then, would have made way more sense? Marrying her to Desmond, who, as Theomore's great-grandson, would probably be fairly close in age to her, not to mention higher in the succession.

Now, to answer your question, yes I absolutely do believe Viserra might have lived a longer (and perhaps even fulfilling) life if her parents had picked someone other than Theomore Manderly to be her husband. Remember, the whole reason she was even out and about the night of her death was because she wanted to have fun one last time before resigning herself to her fate. If she had instead been looking forward to her wedding she wouldn't have had any incentive to sneak out, which makes the chances of her suffering a tragic accident the way she did in OTL astronomically lower.

Thanks for the question, @diegoedil

[crimsonlyinglilly]

Expectations and adaptations Part 2

More from Princess Viserra's line, the Mikaelsons in Westeros AU but still before the appearance of any of our mikaelsons, since i've gotten distracted by the their new grandmother

Viserra says her piece to Queen Alysanne.

Warning for Teen pregnancy and mentions of death in childbirth, age gap, arranged marriage and medieval expectation of marriage consummation ect.

----

Viserra stands straight beside Theomore and crushes the tiny longing to reach for her mother, for once she was the only one in her mother’s eyes, not her precious boys or loud demanding Saera or scared Daella.

The most beautiful daughter, as everyone had told her since before she understood what the words meant, but the least loved. Viserra had spent her life compared to those that came before her, swallowed by Saera’s shadow, had seen Gael get mother's attention that she has never got. 

Some part of her wondered if her parents resented her for living instead of the brothers that followed, she had spent most of her life wishing one of them had lived then she could have had someone the way Baelon had Alyssa.

Now she had something like that, not quite the way she wanted but she had someone who listened to her, all it had taken was losing everything else she knew, yet it was a freedom.

It could have been worth it but even half the kingdom away mother still only looked at her because she saw another.

The marriage was first arranged for fear of Viserra turning out like Saera and her escape and now mother was here because of Daella and Alyssa.

After all, mother must have flown here as soon as their letter arrived at Kings Landing, news of her being with child had to have brought up the ghost of the past. Even now after Viserra had done her duty to her family it was still her sisters who stood in front of her.

But then, mother hadn't wanted her to do her duty.

Theomore had told her why mother chose him after she noticed his strange lack of demands and that he seemed to prefer the nights where they simply slept beside one another.

Mother hadn't wanted her to bare children, Theomore had promised her it was simply for this marriage, that no doubt she would get a better match once widowed, but he was man who seemed ignorant of the fact beauty and Valyrian blood could each cover much but a marriage without issue would scar her reputation and prospects more than any of Saera games had damaged hers.

Theomore could be excused even after a few months travelling it was clear northerners were a different sort to those she was used to in court.

Mother couldn't, Theomore despite his age and weight was still healthy and hale and had past children, Queen Alysanne knew the blame for the absence of children would be laid in her.

Theomore, her poor old man thought this marriage was to keep her out of trouble and safe, when it was clearly to humiliate her.

Viserra wasn't letting it.

There was one positive of being stuck listening to Saera’s bragging: It was learning of the many ways one could take their pleasure and no matter how much Theomore wanted to be a good man and refuse her, he was a man and she had the looks of a goddess.

She wasn't attracted to him but then she had never been interested in any of the squires she toyed with or the knights and lords that had been eyeing her like meat before she turned ten, even Baelon, she had only gone after in hopes to escape the marriage and being sent away.

It had helped she had found their couplings far easier when she was on top and Theomore had made no comment against it.

Still she would give it to him; he was very good at finding distractions for her, she hadn't had this much access to books and maps since Vaegon had left for the citadel.

She had grown fond of him, his dark hair could almost reminded her of Jocelyn’s, yet not as dark, his loud laugh was deep, warm and somehow nothing like those at court, he listened to her when she couldn't help but share something she had learnt and he answered her questions when she asked.

He saw her as a person, beyond the most beautiful daughter of the queen, past the shadows of her sisters, she was just Viserra to him.

It wasn't something she would give up, besides since they had truly arrived in the north, she had discovered a use for his growing bulk, the north was just as cold as she thought but beside Theomore under their furs it wasn't noticeable.

So Viserra was happy as Lady Manderly, mother should be thankful, yet here the Good Queen Alysanne was standing stiffly in the great hall of Viserra’s new home, a blank smile hiding her displeasure. 

She shouldn’t be surprised; annoyance, disgust, disappointment and worry, it seemed was all she could inspire in her mother.

“Are you here to congratulate me?” she asks, breaking the silence that follows the customary greetings, she doesn’t get an answer because, of course, mother looked from her to address her husband instead.

“We had an agreement Theomore.” Alysanne questioned and Viserra couldn’t help but tighten her grip, thankful for the thickness of northern clothes or not doubt her nails would have drawn blood from Theomore’s arm, even right in front of her mother looking at someone else over her.

“Don’t blame him, I insisted on it.” she spoke before he could, thankfully he was letting her take this as she had asked

“You're too young.” Mother waved her off, she couldn’t help but snort as unattractive as it was ignoring the voice in her head from the septa reminding her of how unprincess-like it was, dressed in Manderly blue-green with her husband three time her age at her side, the septa’s words were long past their usefulness.

“I’m the same age as you when you had Aegon.” she said, biting back the want to remind her; she was years older than mother had been when she had run off with father to avoid a marriage to an older man yet when Viserra fled to Baelon to plead for the same she was cold and ambitious.

Viserra was old enough to be married off, she was older enough to make her own choices, and she had a husband that allowed her to pick them.

“You’ll return with me to king's landing, the grand-maester will watch over-” Mother started, unsurprisingly ignoring her words.

Viserra laughed, she remembered Alyssa; strong, fearless Alyssa fading and dying no matter what all the maesters had done.

“You sent me away, remember,” she replied before she could finish. “Father told me all the political reasons why this marriage was  good for the kingdom’s peace. How’s it going to look to take your peace offering back before the first year is over?”

Even the queen she couldn’t insult her hosts without risking an incident and both mother and father had pressed upon Viserra the importance of the match, they wouldn’t risk it.

The appearance and peace of the kingdoms had always come first.

“Like you don’t trust them,” she answers as she watched mother’s brow furrow, had she truly not thought Viserra would see all the implications, she wasn’t Daella or Saera, “like their lesser, it won't be seen well at all and we can’t have your reputation damaged.”

She had Warwick and Malia, two of Theomore’s grandchildren walk her around the city once they arrived, the smallfolk had looked at her with awe but she had caught a few whispers telling her that Mother and Father weren’t as loved here as the rest of the kingdoms.

It was easy to ignore as Malia had joked about taking her for regular walks around the city would increase commerce while Warwick’s eyes had lit up over an idea for annual tourney with her as a host to gather the best of the north.

It was just the seeds of an idea, Warwick was drawing up plans to present to his father, Theomore’s son and heir and the unofficial Lord of White Harbour since her husband had started to pass his duties over to live his last years in peace. 

But one she could use, she would become the beloved princess of the north and ensure that no one could force her to marry again after Theomore’s death, that she had her children, however many she had would be protected in White Harbour.

She had after all grown up watching mother and father doing the same and she had no want to ever return to the weight of king's landing and the shadows in it. She hadn’t noticed how heavy the place she had always known as home had become in the last few years. Vaegon, Daella and Saera, the halls of the red keep had become hauntingly wrong without the siblings she grew up with and her attempt to cling to Baelon had gone so wrong.

“I lost my dragon cloak for a mermaid, you lost a daughter for the realm’s peace.”

“I haven’t- i won’t lose you.” Mother snapped, breaking her queenly mask to step toward her and reach out.

She could almost almost see how it would play if she gave in and allowed in mother to pull her into a hug, the way she would lose her will and allow herself to be swept back to the red keep, proving Mother’s fears true as she followed Daella and Alyssa, another dead child to join the others in the dark, forgotten. Her child if they lived, they would become another piece for father and the council to use.

Her northern dragon would melt in the south under rules and expectations.

“I will never return South.” she declared suddenly pulling herself away from Theomore to stand straight, using her height to look down at her mother. 

“What, Viserra you-” Mother drew back into shock.

She wasn't going to be her mother's comfort, her third or fourth chance, it was too late for that.

She would not forgive mother for failing to see her, only seeing Saera, she would not go through a pregnancy while the queen hoovered seeing Daella or a labour where it was Alyssa that mother wanted to hold the hand of.

Viserra had lived her life in the shadow of her sisters but white harbour- the north was hers, a place where it was only faded rumours of the other princesses and she was the only one that was real.

She was going to have a family here, one where she was a person of her own and not just a reminder or pale shade of one of those that came before, her children would grow up surrounded by a true family and not the poisoned pit of kings landing.

And if she died, then she would be surrounded by people thinking of her, not her sisters.

If she did follow her grandmother and sisters she would make sure she was left to stay in the north, give her a Vaylrian pyre but leave her ashes to rest with Theomore’s past wives. 

She thought of Daella, dead because father insisted on her marriage, who never caused any trouble and should have been left alone in the red keep. 

Dying scared, hurt and sad.

Even in death she had taken from the lord who loved and treasured her, who she had been happy with because Mother’s wishes came first.

Mother had let Daella pick and she died, mother hadn’t let Viserra choose, she could still die, none of that mattered anymore.

“It’s a vow,” she promised lifting a hand to her heart, “Father and you wanted me out of the way, no longer causing gossip and damage so I will remain here, and upon my death my ashes will be interred alongside Theomore’s other wives.”

She ignored the way Theomore straighten up at her words, she was very aware how much he was against being widowed again, his main request for her since they’re wedding had been a request to outlive him. She would try, if the gods were kind she would have her mother’s luck as the ease of a few children, enough so they wouldn’t grow up alone but it was clear meek or fearless, death came the same for those in her family and the childbed.

One of five is better than one of thirteen, the lone princess among ladies instead of just another of the good queen and the councillor's tragic lost children.

She sighed as she noticed the devastation on mother’s face, normally queenly mask gone

“I love you.” Queen Alysanne told her.

“You don’t even know me.”

[stromuprisahat]

Queen Alysanne would remain within [Maegor’s Holdfast] until her child was born, but the experience [attack at Jonquil's Pool] had shaken her and set her to pondering. “I need a protector of mine own,” she told His Grace. “Your Seven are leal men and valiant, but they are men, and there are places men cannot go.” The king could not disagree. A raven flew to Duskendale that very night, commanding the new Lord Darklyn to send to court his bastard half-sister, Jonquil Darke, who had thrilled the smallfolk during the War for the White Cloaks as the mystery knight known as the Serpent in Scarlet. Still in scarlet, she arrived at King’s Landing a few days later, and gladly accepted appointment as the queen’s own sworn shield. In time, she would be known about the realm as the Scarlet Shadow, so closely did she guard her lady.

Fire and Blood (George R. R. Martin)

The slender mystery knight known only as the Serpent in Scarlet also had a great following; when finally defeated and unmasked, “he” proved to be a woman, Jonquil Darke, a bastard daughter of the Lord of Duskendale.

...

Manderly also staged a small tourney in the queen’s honor, to show the prowess of his knights. One of the fighters (though no knight) was revealed to be a woman, a wildling girl who had been captured by rangers north of the Wall and given to one of Lord Manderly’s household knights to foster. Delighted by the girl’s daring, Alysanne summoned her own sworn shield, Jonquil Darke, and the wildling and the Scarlet Shadow dueled spear against sword whilst the northmen roared in approval.

[atopvisenyashill]

au where stannis actually uses his brain and tells doran he’ll betroth shireen and trystane so if he has no sons, shireen with be queen and trystane can be consort if doran sides with him AND he’ll give him the mountain and tywin’s head and doran is like “shit that sounds a lot easier than that other stuff i got going on”

[kataraavatara]

“In 86 AC, Queen Alysanne announced the betrothal of her daughter Viserra, fifteen years of age, to Theomore Manderly, the fierce old Lord of White Harbor.”

commission of my bby Viserra from @wodania

[gracielikegrapes]

If you're still taking requests, please do Viserra. Decked out in purples, and red and golds in Kingslanding OR she reluctantly marries Lord Theomore Manderly and only wears black as if in constant mourning, so fully decked out black and rubies🥹. Hope you have a good day. Take care. Thank you!!!!

Viserra req 1

[maicrzs]

Viserra Targaryen 🪞

"According to Alysanne, Viserra aimed to become a queen and had her eye set on her fourteen-year older brother, Baelon, who had been a widower since the death of his sister-wife Alyssa two years before. Viserra saw no reason as to why she could not be wed to an older brother. Queen Alysanne, however, was determined to prevent such a marriage, and betrothed the fifteen-year old Viserra in 86 AC to Theomore Manderly, Lord of White Harbor. Viserra was not excited about the marriage, as Theomore had grown very stout during his life and had been widowed four times already. Viserra first turned to her father for help, but Jaehaerys agreed with the match and refused to interfere. Viserra then turned to Baelon, hoping for him to rescue her according to court gossip. One night, she slipped past Baelon's guards and climbed naked into his bed, but Baelon sent the drunk girl away when he arrived."

On my last post, I told yall my laptop was broken and I was financially (and mentally bc of that) unstable.

Now, 3 months after, I'm finally back with good news!

I fixed my laptop, I got a new job (that's draining me to the bone but at least it means that I'm not gonna starve yay) and I finished my Viserra piece as was requested many many months ago (maybe a year)

I hope you guys like this one and thar I can post more often at least once a week but we'll see ❤️

I have a lot of drawing ideas!!!!

[green-aeggs-and-spam]

Much has already been said about the various ways that Jaehaerys has neglected, demeaned, and abused his daughters, so I'm going to talk about their marriages (particularly for the younger girls).

Daella and Viserra are both matched off to much older men who already have heirs of their own from a first wife - any children of theirs would inherit nothing. Then there's Saera - Jaehaerys considered all of her teenage companions to be promising matches, except they're really not. They are heirs, but Houses Mooton, Connington, and Beesbury aren't particularly impressive. They're not Lords Paramount (Rodrik Arryn - Daella) and they're not even prominent vassals (Theomore Manderly - Viserra).

So, what gives? Why is Jaehaerys organizing such terrible marriages for his daughters?

My theory: he's intentionally organizing bad matches as a means of limiting the number of half-Targaryens who could one day challenge for the Iron Throne.

The formative experience of his childhood was Maegor usurping the Throne, and one of the challenges of his early reign was Rogar Baratheon attempting a coup to crown his niece Rhaella (who may or may not have been Aerea). Queen Rhaena could have pushed her own claim after Maegor died, and Jaehaerys is lucky that she didn't. Then there's Aerea, an angry teenage girl who was upset about losing her position as heir and upset about being stuck on Dragonstone with her mother, who went and claimed Balerion when left unsupervised. Imagine if she'd successfully commanded Balerion to fly to King's Landing to push her claim - that's not a fight Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have won.

Branches of House Targaryen are a threat. Nieces and nephews and cousins with Targaryen blood are a threat. If preventing that threat means marrying all of his girls off to old men and letting their children inherit nothing, then so be it. Aemon and Baelon are the only ones who really matter.

Jaehaerys wanted to give Alyssa to his heir Aemon, but Alysanne insisted she was "for Baelon," so he accepts this one branch while keeping an eye on them. He ensures his sons are close and sets up Baelon as a future Hand of the King for Aemon. Viserys and Daemon don't receive cradle eggs, and neither one of them claims a dragon (or is allowed to claim, if I were to guess) until after their father Baelon becomes heir apparent. When an eventual succession crisis arrives, Jaehaerys settles the issue clearly and publicly through a Great Council.

As for the other possible branches? Even if all of his younger daughters had married, even if all of them had sons, those sons wouldn't be in any position to challenge the Throne. Maybe a half-Targaryen Lord Arryn would be a threat; a third son of House Arryn wouldn't be, nor would a fourth son of House Manderly. A half-Targaryen Lord Mooton or Connington or Beesbury could never muster an army or gather enough support for his claim. If his daughters have daughters? As evidenced by Aemma, they'll have no better prospects than a Targaryen prince as husband.

His daughters have no value as people who deserve happiness. They're either brides for his sons, tools to be used, or obstacles to be removed.

[deus-sema]

Alysanne doesn't get dragged enough for ruining Viserra's life.

While Jaehaerys was no Father of the Year and made questionable decisions regarding some of his children - especially Saera - he wasn't the one mainly responsible for what went wrong with Viserra, though he wasn't faultless either. His mistake was that he didn't put a stop to the absurdity that was her betrothal.

Betrothing Viserra to Theomore Manderly makes no sense from any perspective whatsoever. While the match was obviously a personal disaster for the girl,it wasn't politically advantageous either because Manderly already had his heirs and spares. Any children born of him and Viserra would have no prospects.

Alysanne's reason for wanting to prevent Viserra's marriage to Baelon - that she wanted to become queen - was absurd too because Aemon was still alive and kicking back then. And, even if Baelon didn't want to remarry after Alyssa, are we supposed to believe that all the young and eligible lords of the Realm were unavailable that Theomore was the only option left? Heck Corlys was still unmarried back then.

It was also someone hypocritical of Alysanne because, on one hand, she had blamed Jaehaerys for forcing Daella to marry at a young age only to go on to betroth the fifteen-year-old Viserra to a man old enough to be her grandfather.

The only plausible reason I can draw from this incident is that Alysanne had a dislike for Viserra and this betrothal was her extreme way of humbling the girl for having normal desires that any princess or noblewoman would.

[sansa286]

Alysanne was especially weird about Viserra...she engages her to Theomore Manderly, who's much, much older than her, thrice widowed, and has many children and grandchildren. So, on the surface there is no political advantage to the marriage aside from vaguely putting a Targaryen somewhere buried in the Manderly bloodline. Alysanne says that she believes it's a good match because he's a good person, so some argue she was trying to "teach Viserra a lesson" about being less vain and valuing things outside of looks. To that I ask: she couldn't have done that with someone Viserra's age? Surely if Lord Manderly is a good person, he more than likely raised some good sons/grandsons. Engage Viserra to one of them instead. Maybe even engage him to one of his heirs, like his grandson Desmond, who eventually goes on to inherit White Harbor after his father (and even votes in favor of Rhaenys and Laenor during the Great Council of 101, so clearly he had some functioning brain cells.) But...no. None of that forethought is present in her decision and Jaehaerys being the antithesis of a girldad that he is, is just as dismissive.

Which brings me to the Baelon incident. Alysanne's reaction to Viserra's supposed flirty behavior around Baelon before the fact is pure projection. For one - Baelon is not even the heir at that point. Aemon is still alive, and may have more children that would put Baelon even further down the line of succession (under normal circumstances, Rhaenys would've inherited before him anyways). And second - a core part of her and Jaehaerys' entire reign is justifying their incestual marriage. They even came up with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, which was widespread propaganda that stated that Targaryens were allowed to wed their siblings because of their supposed inherent superiority. And Viserra is the tenth child of thirteen children and born when Alysanne and Jaehaerys were getting up there in age, meaning that the DoE was well established by that point and a prime aspect of the culture she was growing up in. Her parents are siblings. Baelon literally married Alyssa who was also in contention to be Aemon's wife before Alysanne declared she was meant for Baelon. Viserra herself was briefly considered to be a wife to Vaegon. Actually, pretty much all of her sisters were at one point or another considered potential spouses for their brothers. Simply put: if Viserra did seriously desire Baelon (and I don't think she did, but that's a conversation for another day) it's literally due to the conditioning that's been a part of upbringing for as long as she's been alive.*

The specifics of Alysanne's reaction to the Baelon incident is not recorded. We're only told that she sped up the process of sending Viserra to White Harbor because of it. But she has no room to be angry. Viserra going to her older brother in the hopes that he will save her from a betrothal to an older man she does not desire was clearly inspired by the exact same thing that Alysanne did with Jaehaerys. Alysanne, like Viserra, was also extremely young (13 to Viserra's 15) and engaged to a man significantly younger than her, and when she found out she immediately went to Jaehaerys, and they then booked it for Dragonstone where they wed in secret. And what do you know? At the time they did this Jaehaerys was already the king, and their wedding automatically made Alysanne the queen. The man Alysanne was initially engaged to was twenty-tree, compared to Theomore, who was geriatric. This is why I argue that Alysanne claiming Viserra wants to marry Baelon because she wants to be the queen despite him not even being first-in-line for the throne - Alysanne is essentially saying that, at the very least, part of why she wanted to marry Jaehaerys is because she wanted to be the queen. Which is valid because in terms of political duty, she made the best of her position, but still, she was ambitious and is trying to crucify her daughter for potentially having the exact same ambition.

A lot of people seemingly hate, or at least, villainize Viserra because she said she was prettier than fan-favorite Alyssa, and while yes that is a crazy rude thing to say about your sister who died tragically, it also does not make her a supervillain. Baelon was widowed, so it's not like she was doing this while Alyssa was still alive. Men in Westeros are not just allowed to get remarried, they're expected to. Baelon remaining unmarried was the exception, not the rule. And also, she was 15 and was routinely praised for her looks in a society where the two main things women are valued for is their looks and ability to pop out children. Some love to make the internalized misogyny argument, and I don't disagree, but I also don't single-out Viserra for that because for one: Westeros is a society where it is extremely easy for women to be taught to be that, and two - Alyssa also had internalized misogyny if we're going strictly by the text. So if we're having a who's-more-hateable off based off of that alone, then that's a tie. Notice how people never throw as much vitriol at Vaegon despite the fact that he was ultimately more rude to Daella than Viserra was to Alyssa? Because I certainly have.

*No, I don't ship visaelon/baeserra.

[horizon-verizon]

Alysanne set Targaryen women back. Had she been less pussy watching her misogynist husband stealing their daughter and granddaughter crown in favor of men and just selling their daughters or sending them away like some rabid dogs (justice for Viserra!)… Oh and helping her brother to steal their sister’s crown (sister who damn near raised them). She pissed me off so bad, she’s going to hell with her nasty ass husband 🙏

Even though this is true in a real sense and she hadn't been fair to her own daughters, even with Gael (when she reasonably had the more breadth to change after losing her other daughters) & even is responsible for one's death, I do also see how tirelessly she worked for women in Westeros and they do have some form of protection from noblemen because of Alicent's "Queen's Laws" (right of 1st night abolished and the Widow's Law). These are meaningful acts, even though they had less impact on Targ women directly than they did on peasant folk and other noblewomen.

Two things can be true at once; she clearly had a lot of power with Jaehaerys but what she most wanted to do--to raise the female heir apparent and have Jaehaerys' naming a girl when that opportunity arose--she found that she hit Jaehaerys' limit(s), saw how little she could do to really negate his power as the king/really understood the consequences of what being a Queen consort meant in terms of the unequal powers and subservience, and I think she was compelled more and more down the years, without really realizing it consciously, to anticipate and shape her own actions, words, and plans around what she knew and felt he'd approve or allow. Which in turn affected how she'd view her daughters and how she'd arrange their lives. We see how she's condescendingly treated by the maesters at Oldtown when she visits when she remarks that she'd like to see female maesters and how Jaehaerys never makes a comment to perhaps back her up. (Condescending because they obviously don't believe that women can be as smart as them even with one clearly being in front of their face; they probably thought of Alysanne as an exception.) ("Birth, Death , and Betrayal"):

It's quite obvious she felt more and more like she had no agency or control to do the actual things she wanted. I feel like there was most likely tiptoeing.

Yeah Jaehaerys said to Viserra that he doesn't interfere with Alysanne's decisions concerning marriages, but he says TWICE that Viserra's marriage to Theomore Manderly would be extremely beneficial to "the Iron Throne" ("Policy, Progeny, and Pain"):

...Alysanne wasn't blind or deaf to this, she herself went North to convince Alaric Stark to be more amicable towards Jaehaerys and was involved in the deal of the New Gift. Alysanne was acting for Jaehaerys' interests and then seemed to justify the wrong by making as if Viserra was disrupting the harmony of the family Alysanne is supposed to have the higher authority over (again, note that she probably felt more of her authority & agency as illusory) as both the mother and the Queen Consort. Her decision to marry Viserra off to Theomore specifically was greatly due to it being what Jaehaerys most wanted.

While she never lost courage to bring up things or confront Jaehaerys completely, she did this less and less over the years. She was always much more limited than Rhaenys, Alyssa Velaryon, & Visenya concerning politics. Perhaps she felt this and-- By how she reacts to the Braxton Beesbury duel and how she progressively gloms onto Gael--she simultaneously opted to distance herself from Jaehaerys more and more without really making big confrontations until it came to the head of Saera running away, Daella dying, Viserra dying...when things are too late.

It's a pattern for sure, but a pattern I think Alysanne didn't feel she could get out of. Ironically, it matches Rhaena's own pattern of being "too late" in regards to Alyssa Velaryon and Aerea Targaryen's deaths. Both of these women seem to burrow into their psychological "safe spaces" or coping mechanisms and eventually harm or isolate themselves from those closest to them because they are compelled to try to preserve the smallest sense of agency their privileges as dragonriding Queens in a dynasty quickly assimilated into Andal patriarchy allows.

So, kinda sure. Yes she was complicit. She made her choices, but those choices were made under social compelled personal compromises. So, not too too much on Alysanne so as to make her equal to Jaehaerys. She wasn't perfect by far and again, was responsible for her kids' deaths (Viserra and Gael and Daella) but she can't be called the same or motivated similarly as Jaehaerys was nor that her actions would have been what they were if she hadn't lived in the misogynist setting with a sexist husband she married at 13 as she did. Another perfectly flawed, misguided female character, one who really wanted to "change the world" but was confined by her gender-exclusive role. She did deserve that "Good Queen" title.

Ironically, one of the only reprieves Viserra would have had if she had married Theomore was the very widow's Law that Alysanne made sure became a thing. A small and perhaps unsatisfactory "compensation", considering. Or a lifeline? Shows us all the more the precarious state of married life for women and girls.

[crimsonlyinglilly]

Expectations and adaptations

More from Princess Viserra's line, the Mikaelsons in Westeros AU but before the appearance of any of our mikaelsons.

Theomore adapt to his new wife as nothing goes as he expect it and Viserra finds a freedom in being Lady Manderly.

Warning for underage and age gap, arranged marriage andmedieval expectation of marriage consummation ect.

---

They married as soon as the Maesters declared the princess well enough, even as he, Prince Baelor and the Queen had tried to argue to wait, at least until the bruises from her fall healed but the king in his rage had refused.

If Princess Viserra thought her near death would soften her father to her, she was wrong, however at the news the girl had simply lifted her head and smiled and said that purple always suited her.

He couldn’t help but pity the girl, his new wife, it was clear she was being punished for her elder sister’s actions by her father and due to her mother’s fear, Theomore may have been a good match decades ago but now he was far short of what a Targaryen princess deserved.

Too old and past his prime with many heirs already securing his succession and having already started to pass over his powers to his son so he could spend more of his last years with his grandchildren.

Theomore had agreed to it for Alysanne sake, it was clear losing daughter after daughter had fractured the once strong queen.

While he was lucky not to have lost a daughter to the birthing bed, he knew the loss, a sister, a niece and two of his previous wives had been lost that way, so this marriage was simply to spare his friend another loss, a companion in his last years with a smart girl until she came into herself.

The marriage was never meant to bear fruit, for all his house may have wanted to brag about adding Valyrian blood to the family. Perhaps after the queen and his own death, he had thought then his widow could wed a nephew or grandson, closer in age and let his house have the Valyrian blood, once the girl had lived more than a mere fifteen years.

 He had White Harbour's wealth and reach across to Essos, enough to distract the young woman from what she lost, once she adapted to the cold. 

The fact many in the north would flock to see the blood of Old Valyria should be a balm to her vanity.

He meant it when he had promised Alysanne he would treasure her, spoil her, the way he did his daughters, nieces and granddaughters.

A wise man knew there was a line between overindulging children and crushing them under demands, something he had learnt before he had his own, watching his sisters’ frustrations

 but it seemed in this as time went on the king had lost that wisdom.

He bedded her on the wedding night to settle the marriage but had been expecting the girl to avoid him following it; he had made sure her separate cabin had all the comforts for their journey home.

He hadn't expected the girl to arrive at his cabin the next night and demand it.

—

“I'm your wife, you're my husband, I'm not a whore. You're the only one I can take pleasure from. I'm not Saera.” she had told him, her eyes clear as she spoke of her duty even as she spat her sister’s name.

If he was a stronger man he would have refused, sent her away but he wasn’t.

—

He tried to find other ways to distract her instead during the day, Alysanne had described her daughter as intelligent in the same breath as vain and her charm was well known throughout the seven kingdoms even at her age.

He convinced his grandchildren to reach out to her, since the king had sent all her companions away after the accident, an so Theomore had already started a list of young ladies from the north that would be honoured to stay at white harbour, he would give her a court of her own if she wished for it.

He hadn’t expected her interest in learning how to sail, nor she sudden questions on how House Manderly managed their holding and merchant interest.

It seemed Queen Alysanne had in fact been underselling the girl's intelligence, her curiosity turned into a thirst for knowledge quickly.

They took their time returning to White harbour, taking a detour to several of the free cities , each time he’s a little less surprised at her return to the ship.

In Lys, his grandson had needed to hold the princess back from attacking the messenger, summoning her to see her sister. They left Lys that night and he listened to her rage until she had thrown herself onto the bed.

She didn’t cry but he knew by the way she blinked she wanted to, Theomore knew enough of the royal couple that Princess Saera’s fleeing had hurt them both but he wondered what it was like for her to lose the sister closest in age, watch her parents care and then suffer for her sins.

—-

By the time they reach White Harbour, Viserra has already missed her first moon's blood, despite Theomore’s best attempts.

She’s pleased by it seems and Theomore hates that he doesn’t know her enough to be able to tell if it’s true or hiding fear. He knew his other wives well enough but Viserra grew up in court surrounded by vipers, Theomore doubts he’d ever develop a mask as well as her even if he lived twice as long. 

Her grandmother, Alyssa Velaryon, her sisters; the Princesses Alyssa and Daella, the princess had enough reasons to fear and yet the girl seemed delighted at the idea of a child of her own.

Her little northern dragon, safe to grow free from the court and its eyes.

Still Theomore had wedded her on the idea that this would not be a danger for a few years to come.

He’s not surprised to be woken at news of Silverwing’s arrival, or to arrive at his own great hall to see a blank polite smile on Queen Alysanne’s face.

He knows Viserra sees the threat it is, but then again while she was the good queen to the rest of the seven kingdoms, to Viserra she was the mother that arranged the match to send her away.

So Viserra greets her mother loudly, but her arm linked with his and she made no move closer to the queen.

For the first time in their marriage Theomore truly realised that his wife was a dragon, he was a truly unfortunate realisation as he found himself between a pair of them.

—

All her life Viserra had been told was the blood of the dragon, a Princess of the blood, the image of a goddess of valyria, she was fire and blood.

All manner of childish tales, only to have them shattered as she learnt the only place a woman had was brood mare even blood of old valyria could change what laid between her legs.

But she was no longer a child, she was Lady Manderly now, she had grown fond of her old man and comfortable with the freedom that he granted her.

Her smile was as cold as her new home as she met her mothers’.

[lovedreamer11]

Westeros couples with large age gaps

Okay, today I want to write about the age gap among Westeros couples. This will be a long post. I got this idea after seeing a post calling Daemon a pedophile for the hundredth time. I would understand if this was written by people who are concerned about Rhaenyra’s well-being, but no. The authors of such statements are most often green fans who don’t care about Rhaenyra and are looking for another reason to write nasty things about Daemon.

The sexual relationship between Daemon and Rhaenyra began when the princess was 15 and the prince 31. From a modern point of view, this is terrible, I admit. If I had a daughter, I would never have allowed her to have a relationship with such a big age difference when she was 15. But at that time, others were more embarrassed by the fact of an extramarital affair than by the fact of an extramarital affair. age difference. Rhaenyra was lucky in a way. I mean, before the war, Daemon was good to her. They spent a lot of time together, expensive gifts, compliments. Maesters love to discuss Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship during the war, but before the war there was not a single mention of adultery in the ten years of marriage. Moreover, shortly before the war, Daemon and Rhaenyra conceived another child, and the entire time the princess was carrying Visenya, her husband was always nearby. And even at 49 years old, Daemon was still an attractive man.

Let's look at other couples.

Rhaenys and Corlys. The age difference between them is 21 years. Corlys is older than Rhaenys's father, Prince Aemon. But this did not bother anyone. The princess's grandfather himself, King Jaehaerys, approved of this marriage and stated that Rhaenys could not have chosen a better man. And Rhaenys was only 16 years old, while Corlys was 37 years old. She was his wife almost all her life. 39 years of marriage.

What do you think of the age difference between Corlys and the mother of his illegitimate sons? 44 years old. My grandfather was 44 when I was born. And it wasn’t even a one-night stand, since there were two children. The boys lived with their mother in the village, while Corlys did nothing for the boys' well-being over the years, as he was too afraid of his wife's reaction.

Next up are Princess Daella Targaryen and Lord Rodrik Arryn, who are 21 years apart in age. I admit, I don't feel any animosity towards this couple. After all, thanks to them, Aemma Arryn was born, and after Rhaenyra Targaryen. But there are some points that confuse me. First, the reasons why Daella chose Lord Arryn is that he reminds her of her father. The second thing is that, according to Alysanne, Rodrik loved the princess for many years and did not hide it. I'm sorry, many years? Daella was 16 when the wedding took place. How old was Daella when a thirty-year-old man and father of four children liked her? There's an even better question. If Alysanne knew that the councilman was in love with her daughter, who was younger than his own eldest daughter, then why didn't she do anything?

What will people say about Lady Baela Targaryen and Thaddeus Rowan, who was 40 years older than the girl? Here is his description.

"Lord Rowan is forty years my senior, bald as a stone, with a belly that weighs more than I do."

Every girl's dream, isn't it? Fortunately, Baela was able to avoid such a marriage, but Floris Baratheon was not so lucky. Thaddeus was 42 years older than the girl, and Floris herself got married at 14. To make matters worse, a few years later the poor girl died during childbirth.

What about between the engagement between Princess Viserra Targaryen and Lord Theomore Manderly, who was 30-40 years older than the bride? To make matters worse, he outlived four of his wives and had several heirs. Viserra would be doomed to spend the rest of her life in a foreign land, with an old and ugly husband, and her children, if they were born, would not receive any inheritance. I just can’t believe that such a marriage was arranged for a girl by her own mother.

Princess Daenerys Targaryen (daughter of Aegon the Unworthy) at the age of 15 married Prince Maron Martell, who was 14-25 years older than her. The marriage was an arranged one and, according to GRRM, Daenerys herself was in love with her illegitimate brother Daemon Blackfire. But at least it seems that Maron was kind to his wife, and Daenerys herself became the wife of the Prince of Dorne. I would like to believe that Daenerys was able to find happiness in this marriage.

Lysa Tully was born between 266 and 268. Her first husband, Jon Arryn, was born between 218 and 220. The age difference between them is almost fifty years. Jon was old enough to be a father to Hoster Tully, Lysa's father. I have never felt love for Lysa Arryn, but I feel sorry for her. She was unhappy almost all her life, and due to her past abortion, she was unable to become a mother for a long time. Jon was kind to wife and their marriage gave Lysa power over the Valley, but still the power did not make Lysa happy.

Daenerys Targaryen and Khal Drogo. Their age difference is somewhere between 15-20 years. GOT tried to romanticize this couple, but I don’t see romance. I apologize to the fans of this couple. But Dany is a real victim of Stockholm syndrome. I really feel sorry for fourteen-year-old Daenerys, who convinced herself that there was great love between her and Drogo.

Lord Walder Frey and his eighth wife Lady Joyeuse Erenford. Attention, the age difference between them is 74 years! Walder is an old and rude old man who has more than ten heirs. The poor girl will just waste her youth on her husband and be unhappy all her life.

Larra Rogare and Prince Viserys Targaryen. Their age difference is only seven years. Not as much as previous couples. Everything would not be so bad if Viserys was 16 years old and Larra 23, but no. When the couple got married, the prince was only 12 years old, and at 13 he became a father. This is normal?!

The next couple will surprise everyone. This is Maegor Targaryen and Ceryse Hightower, who was 10 years older than her husband. Then again, if Maegor was 16 and Ceryse was 26, everything would be fine. But Maegor was only thirteen. At that time, he had not yet become a murderer of relatives and a usurper, he was a child. Problematic, but still a child. I blame Aegon and Visenya for allowing their son to marry so early rather than wait at least two or three more years.

The point is that in Westeros marriages with large age differences constantly occurred. This is truly terrible. Some were able to find happiness in their marriage, some avoided it, some remained unhappy for the rest of their lives. This post may seem chaotic to some, but don't judge me. I got sick a little bit.

[perfinn]

Writings on Alarra Snow

Alarra Snow, bastard child born to Lord Wyman Manderly and a wet nurse, Umma, in 277 AC. Brown of eye, black of hair, and brown of complexion. Lord Wyman officially and legally recognised Alarra as his bastard immediately upon her birth.

- Maester Theomore, An Updated History and Lineage of House Manderly of White Harbour

{records of Alarra beyond the incident of her birth are scarce, if they exist at all}

[branwendaughterofllyr]

Also also. Rodrik Arryn and Daella has been the source of SO much discourse. Almost from the moment we found out about it, people were talking about why on earth Jaehaerys and Alysanne married their fragile teen daughter to a man her fathers age who already had heirs from a previous marriage. It’s one of the top reasons why they are so heavily criticized as parents like-

Okay, but I did not become president of the Thaddeus Rowan hate club to be disrespected like this. The man had seven sons from his previous marriages and then went on to impregnate a fifteen year old and she DIED in childbirth. I am absolutely calling that problematic and hating on it

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

Incest is being frowned upon in the Seven Kingdoms in the way it's being understood in the Seven Kingdoms. Much like in real life medival times marrying female members of the family to their uncles or cousins was used for political strengh and accepted as such, the understanding of inbreeding was different compared to today's one, however marrying siblings was highly questionable even then, it's part of the worldbuilding. And Targaryens doing so makes them different from other Houses.

Saying that it's just fans, who are obsessed with Targaryens keeping their bloodline pure is incorrect. In the very first Daenerys chapter of Game of Thrones there is: "She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men."

One could argue, that it's just the way prideful Viserys was thinking, but it's a weak argument considering the number of such brother-sister marriages in the House Targaryen, with mentioned Aegon taking not one, but two of his sisters as wifes and marrying them both at the same time, lack of such marriages in other Houses and when necessary House Targaryen's preference to mix up with House Velaryon, other blood of old Valyria, over other Houses. And even when choosing other House, mostly because of politics, still trying to marry someone, who is at least part Targaryen like Aemma Arryn. House Targaryen was very much trying to keep their blood as pure as they could.

I didn't say the characters didn't care, I said the fans seem to care more than the characters.

In context of European noble families and incest, it was actually not permitted to marry their cousins unless they have a certain lesser degree of shared blood. I think third cousins was what they could marry. Of course, if they got a papal dispensation they could wed closer cousins and the Habsburg even did uncle/niece incest as well, but incest in ASoIaF is not like in the medieval Europe.

There were other non European countries that practiced much closer incest, the Egyptian Pharaohs comes to mind, but it's not the only one.

In terms of marrying close to the family it can be easily explained by not only keeping the magic in their blood, but their culture. The Targaryens, Velaryons and Celtigars are some of the last families of Old Valyria, and the only ones in Westeros. They are outsiders, they are othered by the Westerosi, their customs are frowned upon, so it's no wonder they prefer to marry into the family when there is no consequences for them.

This happens with many other cultures, people prefer to marry someone who con understand them.

Moreover, before the Dance house Targaryen married to other houses with no valyrian blood.

Daella married Rodrik Arryn

Viserra was set to marry Theomore Manderly

Viserys married Alicent

Daemon was forced to marry Rhea Royce

So you see there is much more to that than "keeping the blood pure".